NLE - Express DV or Premiere?

[Lor]

For starting out, would you recommend going straight to Express DV or Premiere 6? How's the two compare to each other? I couldn't make up my mind. Thanks for any advice.

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[crimsonson]

I assume that you have met the hardware requirements to run these two softwares.

Choosing a NLE is a personal decision. There are factors that play roles and are not universal - type of material, length, FX, etc. There are, however, universal ones in my opinion - stability, capture tool and media management.

Both software are opposite side of the spectrum.

Premiere is supported by a wide variety of hardware. Its interface is almost rigid - you cant manipulate it. The timeline is the focus of the project.

XDV on the other hand can only work with OHCI card and W2K (so far). All keyboard shortcuts, and almost all interface buttons are mappable. The Project Folder is as important as any part of the interface.

For short projects - Premiere is quite good. Its stable and responsive. It does 3 point editing. It comes with many FX and transitions. Media management is adequate. Very good compositing capabilities.

It has flaws however. It is unstable and becomes sluggish in long form edits (more than 30 minutes). Media management becomes inadequate (less tools to move, delete, keep track of video and audio files). The capture tool can be annoying (too many buttons to press to do simple changes)

XDV is very good in long form edits. Its stable all the way through. The media mng. toolset is one of the best in the business (you easily track where, how and which files are to be placed). The capture is tool is very easy and robust (less button pressing and setting can be easily changed).

Regarding learning curve - there is perception that XDV is steeper. Untrue IMHO. many of those who says such are Premiere users who never used an Avid before in their life. Ask an Avid editor about Premiere and they will say its the most frustrating interface in the world. If you never used either - it does not matter. However, you might feel more comfortable with Premiere if have used Adobe products (Photoshop, After FX etc.).

If you are serious about editing as you chosen career XDV is the choice. Knowing how to edit with XDV is actually a marketable skill. Your XDV workstation can actually can get you paid if you advertise at your local film school. Saying Avid to a producer and director can get you more gigs than Premiere can - no matter of your skill level. Its a sad but true fact.
If personal projects is your only concern. Any of these two is fine.

Former Premiere user, XDV user at home, Avid Media Composer at work,

Dom


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[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:

It has flaws however. It is unstable and becomes sluggish in long form edits (more than 30 minutes).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it depends on how much RAM you have. I use Premier all the time for feature length restoration projects at full resolution and I don't have any sluggishness at all. However I used to when I only had about 256 megs of RAM. Upgrading past 600 megs can make a huge difference in how responsive Premier is on long form projects. Beyond that I pretty much agree with everything else you said except that the controls for Premier are virtually identical to an AVID. I've used both and the shortcuts are even the same. Anyone that has cut on Premier should have little difficulty moving over to an AVID system.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[crimsonson]

The sluggishness of Premiere is based on reports on many users from other forum (also includes missing files, disappearing renders, etc). Also, if you do a test (using task manager) Premiere does not see past 384 Megabytes of memory. So anything past this will not affect Premiere's performance.

The default setting of an Avid NLE IS NOT the same as Premiere. There are some basic simillarities - JKL, home, end, spacebar but these tends to be universal with many NLE software. However, there are many (including the interface) that are not and some do not even exist in Premiere (layer mode for example). There are enough simillarities for a person to get through an hour of editing. However, past any serious edits (hours and days) one will easily feel the difference if they think Avid and Premiere are the same. You might have used an Avid where the shortcuts where modified in order to mimic Premiere's.

I also think anyone that used Premiere should not have difficulties, but the reports seems to be in the contrary. Check WWUG, Avid's forum and others (like Canpous) and many are frustrated (inlcuding taking Avid classes). I think many of them try to apply Premiere philosophy to Avids.



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[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:
The sluggishness of Premiere is based on reports on many users from other forum (also includes missing files, disappearing renders, etc). Also, if you do a test (using task manager) Premiere does not see past 384 Megabytes of memory. So anything past this will not affect Premiere's performance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Premier fragments a hard drive beyond belief and defragging is a must before any complicated render or tracks will dissapear. I learned that long ago and always defrag before a complex render. Since then I've never had a track dissappear.

Now regarding RAM, despite the test, the reality is just the opposite. Again, when I upgraded from 256 megs of RAM, we experimented with different amounts of memory at the place that built my system and going past 384 megs made a HUGE difference in responsiveness on the system. No, I don't have an explanation for it but what I'm telling you is the truth based on my own personal use of the system.

I also know that what the manufacturers say isn't always the truth, either, since Pennacle claims that you only need 256 megs of RAM to operate effeciently with the Pennald Time Board when, in fact, that is the MINIMUM that you possibly have to do anything at all. Also, Pennacle says that none of their boards will perform stop motion capture under any condition but that is also not true as several of their boards will perform stop motion quite effeciently when used with Premier.

Now, I am using the Pennacle Real Time capture board ($6,000+) which does provide a hardware assist so that might explain why increasing the RAM past 384 megs makes Premier more responsive. Again, I have no logical explanation for it but on my system, the more RAM it had the more responsive it became. We went all the way to a gig of RAM just as an experiment and the thing was blazing. I couldn't afford that much so we trimmed it back but there is definately a big difference beyond 384 megs of ram, at least when used with Pennacle Real Time.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[This message has been edited by MovieStuff (edited March 15, 2002).]

[Lor]

Thanks for all your help.

Does DVExpress support After Effects plug-in or similar products?

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[crimsonson]

Avid plugin system is called AVX.

To use After Effects plugins- there is an Avid AVX that allows you to import many (if not most) of the AFX plugins called Elastic Gasket.

There is also a After Effects plugin that allows you to import your Avid Timeline (OMF) in to After FX.
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[This message has been edited by crimsonson (edited March 15, 2002).]

[Lor]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:
Avid plugin system is called AVX.

To use After Effects plugins- there is an Avid AVX that allows you to import many (if not most) of the AFX plugins called Elastic Gasket.

There is also a After Effects plugin that allows you to import your Avid Timeline (OMF) in to After FX.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks, crimsonson.

Another question. Which version do you recommend: standard, power or edu? The edu seems to be in between, which is good, I think. Video is the final product of what I will be doing.

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[crimsonson]

The advantage of the Powerpack is:

Stabalization plugin (very good)

Filmscribe (for editing 24fps stuff - most likely will not work with super8 since S8 does not have a frame tracking info - but will for any other format - 16mm, 35mm, 24p)

extra Film related FX for video (film type dissolve, aspect ratio masks, etc)

Script editing (pre visualizing script)

extra plugins

Dup detection (if a particular shot has already been used)

See if you NEED any of this. If you can afford it - I dont see why not. However, except for Filmscribe and image stable plug , you will be abel to live WITHOUT Powerpack.

Education pack then?

Keep me informed


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[Lor]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:
The advantage of the Powerpack is:

Stabalization plugin (very good)

Filmscribe (for editing 24fps stuff - most likely will not work with super8 since S8 does not have a frame tracking info - but will for any other format - 16mm, 35mm, 24p)

extra Film related FX for video (film type dissolve, aspect ratio masks, etc)

Script editing (pre visualizing script)

extra plugins

Dup detection (if a particular shot has already been used)

See if you NEED any of this. If you can afford it - I dont see why not. However, except for Filmscribe and image stable plug , you will be abel to live WITHOUT Powerpack.

Education pack then?

Keep me informed

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The education pack comes with XDV, Filmmaker's Toolkit, and Image Stabilization. That's why I said it's in between. The extra fx and commotion plugin I can upgrade, I guess. It will be nice to have the power pack, but the price is too high to consider at the moment. What do you think? Oh, I am looking at http://www.videoguys.com.

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